吳季璁專訪-Part. B Interview with Wu Chi-Tsung-Part. B
(The English version is below)
【台灣藝術大學併校事件】 真有那麼嚴重嗎？ 我們可以看看藝術圈普遍支持的南藝大反併校事件，如何說明了群眾的天真可愛，這圈子還真沒幾個人在用腦袋，滿腔熱血很容易就被有心人操弄，不可不慎～ 還好就是會有我這種無聊又好管閒事的人來打岔，看我創作就知道我很有研究精神，好奇事物背後如何運作，所以我跑去找出歷年的評鑑報告，看看教育部都說了些什麼，怎麼會南藝師生要出來”捍衛藝術自由”呢？一研究就發現妙了，根本和藝術自由一點屁關係都沒有，教育部又沒規定他們一定要搞政治/社會性議題來排擠其他藝術類型，原來南藝長期經營管理不善，自籌款不足，學雜費占比過高，教職員與學生比過高，簡當講就是多年來不去改善經營體質和拓展財源，長期靠擴編廣收學生斂財又養了一堆冗員，一度蟬聯全台灣最貴的大學（人均教學成本最高），勝過各大醫學院，也真的是蠻厲害的，但請問教育部能不處理這爛攤子嗎？再細看內部資料又更有趣了，也不是全校系所都經營的亂七八糟，像文博學群就經營的很好，最多經營問題的就是視覺藝術學群，等等，那不就是抗議併校聲浪最大的嗎？ 為首的龔義昭，顧世勇，和龔卓軍不都是視覺藝術學群的老師？還真是無巧不成書！跨域合演“捍衛藝術自由”的好戲～ 併不併校其實根本不重要，不過是個虛名形式，這學校如果有其精神和文化傳統，自然會延續，如果只是個空殼，也不用再浪費資源養些個廢物了。當初若是南藝好好面對內部經營問題，我想還是有機會的，比如裁撤經營不善拖累學校的系所，哈哈！無論如何，學生們有權知道真相，參與改革拯救他們熱愛的學校，而不是被利用來做為鬥爭的工具，那真的太下流了。看這些學生們被煽動得那麼情緒化的搞批鬥，真是令人不勝唏噓，怎麼會學藝術學到沒有思考能力呢？然後犧牲一堆年輕人就為了保護少數人的既得利益？! 真是很噁心... ... 最終併校被擋下，但學校內部只怕內鬥分裂得更嚴重，也更不可能取得共識有所變格，估計就是等廢校了吧！然而當初一副要革命，要和南藝共存亡的老師，奇怪怎麼好像私底下動作頻頻在找其他機會跳船，呵呵，嘿嘿～ 不知那些認真經營卻落得陪葬的系所，看在眼裡情何以堪，哈哈～～～ 而這是台灣大專院校整併改革的起步，影響台灣未來競爭力的重要一役，教育部難得做件對的事就碰上了庚子拳亂，只怕開啟了最糟糕的先例，有問題的學校只要借媒體和政治力介入，就可以繼續為所欲為浪費公共資源，真不知道這干藝術自由屁事？遺憾的是，我們鄉愿無知的藝術圈是最大的幫兇。不好意思我扯遠了。
【現在學院狀況究竟有多糟呢？】 我就舉工作空間為例子好了，比如北藝大美術系，有兩間教室給學生當工作室，以四個年級每年級將近70人計算，平均一個人一平方米的工作空間都分不到，勉強可以拉張椅子把筆電放在大腿上工作，如果都不用起來上廁所的話，但大家要走動可能就得疊在一起，還好該校以風氣開放著稱疊在一起應該沒有問題......相近大小的工作室在柏林藝術大學UDK的話，還挑高兩層樓加大片窗戶自然採光，大概是3-5個人使用，相差幾倍我就不算了，算辛酸的...... 更不用說UDK的師資都是國際一線的藝術家，德國公立學校又不用學費，加上一堆獎學金可以申請，連打工薪水都比台灣高得多，到底幹嘛待在台灣唸書被些蠢見洗腦...... 至於要具備什麼樣的創作基礎之類的，根本都不重要，藝術家千奇百怪，研究的方向成千上萬，想做什麼愛做什麼都可以，只有在台灣才會被一堆學院蛋頭逼的一定要搞什麼藝術介入社會，成天質疑你的藝術跟社會有什麼關係？我想不透，公共資源養群廢物飽食終日無所是事還裝神弄鬼誤人子弟，這些到底跟藝術有什麼關係？
最好有基本的外語能力，才能和各國的朋友有更多交流，不過也不用擔心語言能力不夠好，永遠不會有準備好的一天，硬著頭皮上就對了，搞藝術不就是冒險嗎？ 發展到一定階段的藝術家，柏林很適合，但更年輕比如三十歲以下的，應該去剛起步/草創的地方，好玩有生命力物價也低廉，比如歐洲的話，德國萊比錫，波蘭華沙，葡萄牙里斯本等，亞洲的話印尼日惹是個好選擇，越南的河內和西貢也正在快速發展。 離開台灣吧！ 待在這是沒有未來的，沒有國際美術館，沒有國際策展人，也沒幾個人真的在做研究，就一堆唬爛的假學術假左派，市場充斥投機炒作，收藏群外移嚴重，圈子滿坑滿谷的老屁股占著茅坑不拉屎，你還獃在這等死？ 試著用一個地球人的角度思考你的人生和Career，不僅只是台灣人，不管你喜不喜歡接不接受，我們生在全球化高速擴張的時代，在地資源會一直被吸收進入全球市場，意味著唯有能在全球市場競爭的人才有機會生存，但發展空間是無限大的！ 至於大家都很喜歡談論藝術家的“才華”，其實才華一點都不重要，跟乳溝一樣，大家擠一擠多少都有一點，我為了對自己的言論負責還實驗了一下......確實沒有問題。關鍵是努力，才華高一點，想一百個計劃有五個會成功，才華差些一百計劃只中兩個，沒關係啊！就想一萬個，每個都去嘗試，笨蛋也變大師了～
Q： 如果將來您想在藝術領域嘗試多方面的創作型態, 您會從那方面開始？是尋找新的創作題材？還是結合文創？或者說打破原來的想法重新定位自己的方向？
A： 不排除任何可能吧！ 從大學至今累積下來的草圖/計劃，恐怕我有生之前都做不完，而現在做的創作，不過是現在有能力去執行的東西，還有太多想法要等待對的機緣去發展，只能先慢慢的累積實力和資源。 我的role model是達文西，充沛的生命力和創造力，涉獵廣泛又充滿好奇心，無法簡單把他定位為現在所認知的藝術家，他同時也是在諸多領域有所貢獻，如工程學、建築學、幾何學、數學、天文學、解剖學、物理學、動力學、動植物學、發明......等，仔細想想也是可以理解的，拿掉分門別類的區隔，那不都是創造行為嗎？ 我個人很喜歡表演藝術， 2013年開始參與一些製作，通常負責舞台設計，有幸和多位傑出的編舞家和劇場導演工作，如蘇文琪、林文中、 Baboo…..等，開啟了我更廣泛的藝術視野，當代表演和視覺藝術有許多共同的命題，比如身體和數位等，觀察各領域如何用不同的方式切入思考/研究，發展其工作方式，是非常有啓發性的經驗。 此外，我們也有一些和公共空間及建築有關的計劃，也很感興趣產品開發甚至發明，非常樂意參與各式各樣的跨界合作。我深信保持開放的態度和好奇心，是創造力的泉源。
A：我們主要的發展重心其實倒不是放在創作和展覽，那只是持續性的『基本工作』，接下來的重心會放在建立一個國際化的工作團隊，希望能給所有夥伴更優渥的待遇、進修成長的支持、彈性而自由的工作環境、開闊的視野、和一展長才的發展空間。 我們目前主要的工作室位在臺北八里，約200坪的空間，有三位正職夥伴，一位負責行政管理，兩位負責作品製作與研發/技術/採購等工作，還有五位part-time的助手，因為工作量頗大，可能近期還會再招募新的工作夥伴，擴大規模。 另外一個工作室在德國柏林，位於 Lichtenberg的Studio-ID，約24坪的空間，比較像是一個創作的實驗室，是我們在歐洲區域活動和發展的基地，尚在草創階段逐步成長。 談到展覽計劃，我一直以來對展覽邀約的原則都蠻機車的：國際展覽儘量參加，台灣展覽儘量不參加。希望可以幫助年輕一輩藝術家節省一點時間，所以我要很遺憾的指出這殘酷的事實，台灣的展覽幾乎沒有任何屁用，一堆商業畫廊根本沒在推藝術家、沒培養收藏群、連自己也不買作品，還期待藝術家帶藏家去，那到底要畫廊幹嘛？美術館展覽又有多少人在看，又沒國際能見度，多半也沒什麼後續效應，我把作品PO自己臉書可能還比較多人看到，一堆既沒創作費又不付藝術家費用、整天只知道凹藝術家的單位，像國美館就是最惡名昭彰的，真不知道當初拼了老命救起國美館的倪再沁，在天之靈怎麼看現在這個待退官僚的安養院。 台灣充斥著因陋就簡，粗制濫造的展覽和表演，是笨蛋文化政策下的產物，種瓜得瓜因為政府咨詢了一群笨蛋，呵呵！ 想想看，藝術家崛起需要做幾個展覽？一百個？一千個？ 其實只要一個，一個讓人印象深刻的展覽，一件震撼人心的作品，就夠了，看看Freeze展如何開啟一個YBA的時代就知道，那大家到底在瞎忙個屁？ 中國的藝術市場還很混亂，真正的收藏群才剛開始起步，還要一段時間發展成熟，我也不為了投機賺快錢，倒是不急著進去，靜觀其變。有位在海外發展的中國藝術家朋友說的很好，中國是她最後一個市場。
A： 我個人非常樂意參與各式各樣的合作和公眾事務，對於公共性的項目尤其感興趣，畢竟創作本來就是為了與人交流分享，而且每個人都是站在過去人們的肩膀上才能看得更遠，如果世界能因為我們來過而更好了一點，那這生命就有了價值。人本來就是為了他人而存在。 許多人見樹不見林，藝術家的工作遠遠不止是創作藝術品，而是”藝術這整件事”，作品是傳達理念和想法的一種方式，是一段時間的創作發展和生命裝態遺留下的記錄，拉出的屎，凝結那段時間的思想和感受，就像禪宗說的手指指月，重點是指出月亮的方向，人們卻往往只盯著手指看。所以只要能指出月亮，任何方式都很好，演講、座談、寫文章罵人都是不錯的管道，呵呵！
How should young Taiwanese artists be internationalized?
Q: How do you think the young artists of Taiwan now have to step out of internationalization? What kind of preparations do you need to do before? What kind of creation and basic ideas do you have?
First of all, it is very regrettable to say this, but it is best to avoid art education in Taiwan. Most of the teachers are of poor quality. No matter the ability or vision of the art profession, they are interested in finding professors from various art schools. CV came out to see what exhibitions have you done? Where are you on display? What are the indicative artistic achievements? Most of them can't talk about international development at all. Even the Taiwanese art circle is probably unclear. Some even CV can't write. It's hard to expect such teachers to give you any inspiration. What is even worse is that you may learn some artistic ideas that seem to be arrogant and arrogant. They are involved in some college politics struggles with boring and idiots with small noses and small eyes. The good times also make the brain break.
[Taiwan Art University merging]
Is it really so serious? We can look at the Tainan National University of the Arts anti-merging Universityl event that is generally supported by the art circle. How to explain the innocence and lovableness of the masses. There are really few people in this circle who are using their brains. It is easy to be manipulated by the people. Fortunately, there will be such a boring and nosy person like me. I am very research-oriented and curious about how things work, so I ran to find out the evaluation report over the years and see the education. What did the ministry say, how could Tainan National University of the Arts' teachers and students come out to "defend artistic freedom"? A study has found that there is no such thing as a relationship between art and art freedom. The Ministry of Education has not stipulated that they must engage in political/social issues to exclude other art types. It turns out that It’s long-term management is not good and self-funding is insufficient. The ratio of tuition and miscellaneous fees is too high, and the ratio of faculty and students is too high. It is simply that we have not improved our business physique and expanded our financial resources for many years. We have long been relying on the expansion and enrichment of students to collect money and raise a bunch of redundant staff. It was once the most expensive University in Taiwan. The university (the highest cost per student) is better than the major medical schools. It is really quite powerful, but can the Ministry of Education not handle this mess? It’s even more interesting to look at the internal information. It’s not a mess in the whole school. It’s very good to run like a liberal arts group. The most problematic business is the visual arts group, etc. It’s not a protest and school sound. The biggest?
The heads of Gong Yizhao, Gu Shiyong, and Gong Zhuojun are not teachers of the visual arts group? It’s really a coincidence! Cross-domain concerts to "defend artistic freedom" ~
It doesn't matter at all, but it is not a big name. If the school has its spiritual and cultural traditions, it will naturally continue. If it is just an empty shell, it will not waste resources to raise some waste. At the beginning, if the had a good face with internal management problems, I think there is still a chance, such as abolishing the mismanagement of the school, haha! In any case, students have the right to know the truth, to participate in reforms to save the schools they love, rather than being used as a tool for struggle, which is really too low. It’s really astounding to see these students being so emotionally tempted. How can they learn art without thinking? Then sacrifice a bunch of young people to protect the vested interests of the minority? It’s really disgusting...
In the end, the school was blocked, but the school was only afraid that the internal division would be more serious, and it would be even more impossible to achieve a change in the consensus. It is estimated that it will be abandoned! However, at the beginning, a teacher who wanted to revolutionize and want to live with Nanyi wondered how it seemed that private actions were frequently looking for other opportunities to jump, huh, huh~ I don’t know those departments that are serious about business but are buried in the fun. Haha~~~
This is the beginning of the reform of Taiwan’s colleges and universities, and an important battle that affects Taiwan’s future competitiveness. The Ministry of Education’s rare thing to do is to encounter the worst case, and it’s a problem. As long as the media and political power are involved, the school can continue to waste public resources as it pleases. I really don’t know how to do this art freely. Regrettably, our art circle of ignorance is the biggest accomplice.
[How bad is the current state of the college? 】
I will take the work space as an example. For example, there are two classrooms for the students of the TNUA. They are used as studios for students. They are calculated by nearly 70 people in four grades. The average working space of one person and one square meter is not available. I can barely pull the chair and put the laptop on the thigh. If you don't use it to go to the toilet, you may have to stack together. Fortunately, the school is popular for the opening atmosphere and there should be no problem.. .... The studio of similar size is in the UDK of the University of the Arts in Berlin. It also picks up two floors and enlarges the natural lighting of the window. It is about 3-5 people.
Not to mention that UDK's faculty are international first-line artists. German public schools don't have to pay tuition, plus a bunch of scholarships can apply. Even the wages of working are much higher than those in Taiwan. Why are you studying in Taiwan and being stupid?
As for what kind of creative foundation to have, it doesn't matter at all. Artists are very strange. The direction of research is thousands. What do you want to do and love can do? Only in Taiwan will it be forced by a bunch of colleges. Must engage in art to get involved in society, and question what is the relationship between your art and society? I don't think so.
It is best to have basic foreign language skills in order to have more communication with friends from all over the world, but don't worry about the language ability is not good enough, there will never be a prepared day. Isn't art an adventure ?
Berlin, which is a certain stage of development. But younger people, such as those under the age of 30, should go to a place where they have just started/cred, and have fun and low prices. For example, in Europe, Leipzig, Germany, Warsaw, Poland, Lisbon, etc. In Asia, Indonesia Yogyakarta is a good choice, and Hanoi and Saigon in Vietnam are also developing rapidly.
Leave Taiwan! There is no future in this, there is no international art museum, no international curators, and few people are really doing research. There are a bunch of splendid fake academic leftists. The market is full of speculation and the collections are seriously moved. The old buttocks in the circle full of valleys are not squatting, are you still waiting to die?
Try to think about your life and Career from the perspective of an earth person. Not only Taiwanese, whether you like it or not, we are born in an era of rapid global expansion, and local resources will always be absorbed into the global market. This means that only those who can compete in the global market have the opportunity to survive, but the development space is infinite!
Future pluralistic style
Q: If you want to try a variety of creative styles in the art field in the future, what would you start with? Looking for a new creative theme? Still combined with Wenchuang? Or to break the original idea and reposition your direction?
A: Do not rule out any possibility! The sketches/plans accumulated from the university so far, I am afraid that I can't finish before I have a life, but the creations that I am doing now are just things that I have the ability to implement now, and there are too many ideas to wait for the opportunity to develop. Can slowly accumulate strength and resources first.
My role model is Da Vinci, full of vitality and creativity. She is broad and curious. She can't simply position him as an artist she knows now. He also contributes in many fields, such as engineering and architecture, geometry, mathematics, astronomy, anatomy, physics, dynamics, flora and fauna, inventions, etc. It’s understandable to think about it, and to get rid of the divisions, it’s not all creative behavior?
I personally like performing arts. I started to participate in some productions in 2013. I usually take charge of stage design. I am fortunate to work with many outstanding choreographers and theater directors, such as Su Wenqi, Lin Wenzhong, Baboo.....etc. The artistic vision, contemporary performance and visual art have many common propositions, such as body and digital. It is a very instructive experience to observe how various fields cut into thinking/research in different ways and develop their working methods.
In addition, we also have some plans related to public space and architecture, and are also interested in product development and even invention, and are very happy to participate in a variety of cross-border cooperation. I am convinced that maintaining openness and curiosity is the source of creativity.
Creation and exhibition plans for the next 3-5 years
Q: Can you talk to us about your creation and exhibition plan for the next 3-5 years? Is it mainly domestic or foreign? Do you have plans to move forward to the Chinese market?
A: Our main development focus is not on creation and exhibition. It is only a continuous "basic work". The next focus will be on establishing an international work team, hoping to give all partners better treatment. Support for growth and development, a flexible and free working environment, an open vision, and a space for development.
Our main studio is located in Bali, Taipei, about 200 pings. There are three full-time partners, one is responsible for administration, two are responsible for production and R&D/technology/procurement, and five part-time The assistant, because of the heavy workload, may recruit new work partners and expand the scale in the near future.
Another studio in Berlin, Germany, is located in Lichtenberg's Studio-ID. The space of about 24 pings is more like a creative laboratory. It is the base for our activities and development in the European region. It is still growing in the grassroots stage.
When it comes to the exhibition plan, I have always been arrogant about the principle of the exhibition invitation: international exhibitions try to participate, Taiwan exhibitions try not to participate. I hope that the younger generation of artists can save a little time, so I have to regret to point out the cruel fact that Taiwan’s exhibitions have almost no fart. A bunch of commercial galleries are not pushing artists, cultivating collections, and even owning themselves. If you don't buy a work, you still expect the artist to bring a collector. What do you want to do in the gallery? There are many people in the exhibition of art museums, and there is no international visibility. Most of them have no follow-up effect.
Taiwan is full of simple and shoddy exhibitions and performances. It is a product of the stupid cultural policy. It is because the government consulted a group of idiots, hehe!
Think about it, how many exhibitions does the artist need to do? a hundred? One thousand?
In fact, as long as one, an impressive exhibition, a shocking work, is enough, look at how the Freeze exhibition opened a YBA era.
The art market in China is still very chaotic. The real collection group is just beginning to take off. It will take some time to develop mature. I don’t want to make quick money for speculation. Instead, I am not in a hurry to go in and wait and see. A Chinese artist who has developed overseas is saying very well. China is his last market.
Artist's social responsibility
Q: What kind of social responsibility do you think artists should have in terms of art education, including adults and students? Would you like to work with some art foundations or cultural and educational foundations?
A: I personally am very happy to participate in various kinds of cooperation and public affairs. I am particularly interested in public projects. After all, the creation is to share with others, and everyone is standing on the shoulders of people in the past to see. Going further, if the world can be better because we have been there, then this life has value. People are meant to exist for others.
Many people see the tree without seeing the forest. The artist's work is far more than creating art, but "the whole thing of art." The work is a way of conveying ideas and ideas. It is a period of creative development and life. The record, the embarrassment that was pulled out, the thoughts and feelings that condensed that period of time, just like the fingers of the Zen dialect, the point is to point out the direction of the moon, but people often only stare at the fingers. So as long as you can point out the moon, any way is very good, speech, discussion, writing articles are good pipes, hehe!
The above interviews were produced by Wu Chi-Tsung and LIVART Responsible Editor. The content was published on the LIVART fan page after Wu Chi-Tsung's studio. If you need to reprint, please indicate the source.